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TOPIC: St. Charles v.s Dovetail

St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30352

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I find it very odd how typology can change across a state line or even state itself

one thing I have noticed is that the St.Charles type or Dovetail is mostly called St.Charles by the books alone

not once have I conversed with another Missouri collector that referred to his
find as a St. Charles it has always been Dovetail
as well as every time I talk about a St. Charles they have no clue & when I have to say AKA dovetail they look at me like I am trying to be a know it all

why do the same forms change names pending on where it was found ?
this can make what would be fairly simple typology look like quantum physics to the new collectors










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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30362

  • turkeytail
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Dont forget about Plevna!! :)
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30363

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Thats is a great find don't care what you call it. Dovetail??? Matt gave good exp: of dovetail on an earlier post. Was good reading!!

Joe.
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30367

  • Neanderthal
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St. Charles was a more academic accepted term for the type while "Dovetail" was more accepted by collectors to cover a wider range of forms. Similar to the Heavy Duty point type, it was named by collectors.

For accuracy, St. Charles are a type of Dovetail, but not all "Dovetail" are St. Charles variety. It's like saying all German Shepherds are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepherds. "Ohio button base" is a dovetail, but not a St. Charles - see what I mean? Plevna is another regional variant of a hip-roof style dovetail.

For what it's worth...the point you are showing is none of the above, it doesn't appear dovetail.
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30373

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yeah wow I actually had not thought of sub types but the other info was good as well thank you


now if the people I talked to would catch this lol
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30389

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I agree with Matt that is a type of Dovetail. To me, the dead giveaway is the notching. Nothing about it resembles any variety of Doves. It is a really nice point, don't get me wrong. I am a lumper most of the time-not up on typology like I should be but I know Doves.
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30394

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I am not sure but looks like as been re worked into a drill. Just a thought.
Look to the ground for it holds the past!
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30396

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that's exactly the case its a St. Charles drill form looks to be either ceremonial or eccentric to me the wavy bit all twisted I correct me if I read incorrect but did not some of the drill forms were used as decoration ? this my theory on this artifact :dry:
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30397

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I am going to start out with IMO because Drill forms are hotly debated. I would say this is an exausted knife. That being said, I would put it my drill frame.
Sometimes I can.....sometimes I can't....Sometimes I just don't try
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30436

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rmartin wrote:
I am going to start out with IMO because Drill forms are hotly debated. I would say this is an exausted knife. That being said, I would put it my drill frame.


I was unaware that drills where such a hot topic but I can see both Ideas but the knife people from the sound of things are leaning on the chicken or the egg theory wich would just put us back at St. Charles Or DovetaiL BUT THEN AGAIN I geusss we would be Back at Burlington chert lol :lol: :silly: :blink: :lol: :silly:
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30438

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This drill was sharpened down using alternate beveling which caused the twisted look. It is not ceremonial or eccentric but a tool that was used for punching holes in things. The base of this looks like it is a E Notched Thebes and not a Dove / St Charles.

This is a worked down E Notched Thebes. They use alternate bevel to reshapen these types as you can see in this picture, same as in your picture.
ThebesENotch2.jpg


ThebesENotch1.jpg
\

Jack
Last Edit: 2 years 11 months ago by greywolf22.
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30544

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I would agree with that. Your 'blade' is a worked down 'Thebes'. The base and notching is a dead giveaway.
Typology is definately a learned endeavor by careful observation and years of patient practice. No-one is an expert overnight...or even after many years. We all have more to learn!
If things seem confusing...just get into it more! You have a lifetime to spend! Enjoy your 'hobby'!
My thoughts...
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30552

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The drill types that I find in this area of Ga are only straight with no handles on them. I havent found any that nice yet. But I still keep them. Very nice find you got there.
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30615

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Thanks Jack, Thanks for the post Matt and welcome back Dan. your post is well said!
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'll take things the Road Runner might say for 400 Alex!
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Re: St. Charles v.s Dovetail 2 years 11 months ago #30799

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thanks for all the reply's and the correction on my mistaken typology I love typology and all knowledge in that area is good knowledge !
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